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| + | == Missing word. == |
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| − | : ''William Lennox is a [[human]] in the [[Movie (franchise)|Movie]] [[continuity family]].'' |
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| + | "Drug Addicts" should be inserted between <I>now considered by many</i> and <i>to be the critical pinnacle</i> :-) [[User:Chaotic nipple|Chaotic nipple]] 19:06, 24 October 2006 (UTC) |
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| − | [[Image:lennox-slide-shoot.jpg|right|thumb|250px|YOU DISHONOR MY FAMILY!!!]] |
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| + | : I am going to have to ask you to leave. :-) --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 19:24, 24 October 2006 (UTC) |
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| + | :: Are you sure about that? If I leave, the halucinatory spiders will come to get you. SPIDERS!!!! [[User:Chaotic nipple|Chaotic nipple]] 03:54, 25 October 2006 (UTC) |
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| + | == Comic continuation == |
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| − | '''William Lennox''' is a Captain in the [[United States Military|United States Army Rangers]], stationed at [[SOCCENT Forward Operations Base]] in [[Qatar]]. A young, yet capable officer, Lennox has the friendship and trust of the men under his command. |
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| + | This became so long so quickly that I'm hesitant to just dump it, but... it shouldn't be here. We have individual story pages (or will) for the comics stories, and that is where their respective summaries should go. This page concerns only the cartoon. The [[Beast Wars]] franchise page provides links to other media of Beast Wars. |
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| − | He has a [[Sarah Lennox|wife]] and a newborn daughter [[United States|back home]]. |
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| + | Also, none of the summarizing is written in the proper voice. --[[User:Sntint|Sntint]] 12:57, 17 July 2007 (UTC) |
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| − | {{-}} |
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| + | :Additionally, I strongly contest the claims made by ShadowHawk that Beast Machines is ignored by most fans, or that the IDW series is considered the "real" followup by most fans, so I removed the part about BM also. --[[User:Steve-o|Steve-o]] 15:08, 17 July 2007 (UTC) |
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| − | ==Fiction== |
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| − | ===''Transformers'' (2007 film)=== |
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| − | :''Actor:'' [[Josh Duhamel]] |
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| + | ::Indeed. I intended to remove that but failed to. Thank you. --[[User:Sntint|Sntint]] 15:19, 17 July 2007 (UTC) |
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| − | {{spoiler}} |
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| + | Ok I admit you guys have valid points, but honestly though Beast Machines is ignored, especially with Beast Wars: Ascending series...nothing of the Beast Machinese Saga was mentioned or continued through that series and honestly i've examined Beast Machines and it poorly reflects Beast Wars. Rhinox turning evil!? Megatron just happen to get lost in the warp portal and managed to get through ahead of time than the Maximals and already enslaved call of Cybertron to Vechicons!? The whole thing sounds crappy, but you guys are right so when are you guys able to start an article about the Beast Wars comic then? Here's the origninal wiki page [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beast_Wars:_The_Gathering Beast Wars: The Gathering] -ShadowHawk |
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| − | [[Image:Movie_Lennox_Scorponoktail.jpg|thumb|left|250px|Yeah, real good watching your commander's back, guys in the background.]] |
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| + | :Untrue, the moon from Beast Wars has appeared elsewhere! ^_^ |
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| − | Returning back to SOCCENT after a mission behind enemy lines, Lennox's men discussed what they were going to do once they got home to the States. As usual, [[Jorge Figueroa|Fig]] talked about his mom's cooking in spanish, [[Robert Epps|Epps]] commented that he'll never accept a dinner invitation to Fig's house and [[Sergeant Donnelly|Donnelly]] reminiced about flat beer, cold hotdogs and baseball on weekends. When asked about what he wanted to do, Lennox replied that he only wanted to hold his baby girl for the first time, to which his men teased him for his sappy sentiment. |
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| + | :Seriously though, BM -> Universe -> Fun Pub. Characters originating with Beast Machines are ''still in circulation''. (Well, okay, I admit Sentinel Maximus isn't in circulation ''now'', but he was up until the current arc, which continues directly from a story where he ''was'' running around.) -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 03:04, 18 July 2007 (UTC) |
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| + | :Shadowhawk, we don't need to "start" an article about it... we already ''have'' pages about [[The Gathering]], both as a series, and individual articles for each issue. --[[User:Steve-o|Steve-o]] 04:26, 18 July 2007 (UTC) |
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| − | After their CV-22 Ospreys touched down, Lennox was writing a report when local boy [[Mahfous]] visited him carrying a bag of water. Soon afterwards, he talked to his wife Sarah and their daughter on the satellite video phone. Lennox declared that their daughter was so cute that he just wanted to chew on her cheeks, and that they both made one good looking kid. To his delight, Sarah told him their girl has his laugh, though he wondered if she had merely farted. Around the same time as a [[Blackout (Movie)|mysterious MH-53 Pave Low]] helicopter had landed on the base, his connection to Sarah became distorted, and he tried to tell her that he'll be home soon as the transmission was cut. |
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| + | ::Steve took my main point, but I also want to re-iterate that Beast Machines being "ignored" needs to be substantiated if it's going to be included here. It sounds like a statement of canonical fact, which to my knowledge is not true. If you're just stating your opinion about BM... this really isn't the place for it. --[[User:Sntint|Sntint]] 04:31, 18 July 2007 (UTC) |
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| − | Suddenly, the base was under attack as the helicopter somehow transformed into a giant robot. Leading his men and the boy Mahfous, they witnessed Epps nearly being crushed by the weapons platform before Fig saves him by firing a sabot from his grenade launcher into the 'chest' of the weapon. With Epps in tow, Lennox's unit escaped as the robot laid waste to SOCCENT, leaving no survivors. |
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| + | |||
| + | :well pointed out, but whatever word you choose "ignore", "void", "revamp"..this whole matter is argumentative on that level because the fans are divided about what's canonical...in reality whoever owns the license rights tends to choose the direction of the series and have creative rights to change what has already happened, just look at Highlander 2...the hardcore fans hated it and it was redone several times because it was considered by majority that bad and I admit that I'm biased against Beast Machines cause i really think the story was poorly written however i never once thought about adding my personal feelings or opinions into this...IDW created a story line parallel to Beast Wars about time contamination and so you might say Beast Machines did happen, but because of Razor Beast's and Magmatron's interference with the time line is yet again further changed so it might be one of those time paradox's where it did happen, but it's been erased. Either way I understand your positions and honestly guys i tried looking for that "The Gathering" page but nothing surfaced on this site other than wikipedia's version online so i thought no one added it in. You guys made a fair call so i'm not going to challenge it, but I did write it based on the powers that control the direction of the Beast Wars universe currently and not in the past. I don't know about you guys, but those that control the license has a say what's canonical or not and right now the miniseries is by all technicality canonical. I apologize if i angered anyone, but seriously Beast Machines was like the Van Damne Street Fighter movie to me. There were some serious canonical flaws in there and that's why i'm "up in arms" with it and I don't mean to offend.-ShadowHawk |
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| + | ::Whoah, whoah, hold on, there. Nobody's offended; calm down. The thing is, while: |
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| − | The next morning, after making their way through the desert, the men discussed the past night's events, with Epps expressing his belief that the weapon, whatever it was, looked right back at him as he was taking its photograph. Lennox determined that no matter what, they had to get the information back to [[the Pentagon]], and asked Mahfous to lead them to his villiage where they could find a telephone line. Unknown to them, [[Scorponok (Movie)|a second robot]], a mechanical scorpion, was listening to their conversation and stalking them. As they neared the outskirts of the villiage, a metal spiked tail rose out of the sand and nearly killed Lennox when Epps fired at it, saving his life. Unfortunately, the giant scorpion killed top kick Donnelly and the men ran for their lives to relative cover of the villiage. |
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| + | ::1) Beast Machines garnered a poor initial reaction, and |
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| − | Ordering the men to form a defensive perimeter, Lennox followed Mahfous to his father [[Akram]]'s house, the latter of whom provided him with a cell phone. As the others fought off Scorponok, Lennox attempted to call for help from the Pentagon, but had more than a little trouble with the operator who demanded a credit card despite the life-and-death situation he was in. After sucessfully searching for Epps' credit card in one of the latter's many back pockets, Lennox sucessfully contacted the Pentagon, but not before the operator tried to get him to sign onto a Premium Plus World Service Gold Package. He'll never use that company again. |
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| + | ::2) IDW's comics may propose an alternate set of sequel-events for BW, |
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| + | ::We cannot substantially say that 2) happened because of 1). I haven't READ the BW comics yet, and neither our article nor Wikipedia's seems to detail exactly what about it even contradicts BM. |
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| − | [[Image:Movie_LennoxEpps_backpockets.jpg|right|thumb|250px|10: LEFT CHEEK! |
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| − | 20: GOTO 10]] |
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| + | ::If I've missed a point, then I apologize. Your sentence structure is a little hard to read. --[[User:Sntint|Sntint]] 14:46, 18 July 2007 (UTC) |
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| − | The Pentagon sends in two A-10 Thunderbolt IIs from Strike Package Bravo, to which Lennox orders the men to laze the target for the the Air Force' radars to lock onto and fire upon. Unfortunately, the A-10s do no appreciable damage to the metal scorpion with Epps expressing disbelief that it could still be alive. Lennox suggested the biggest barrels the Air Force has: the 105 millimeter cannons of AC-130 Spectre gunship. This is signaled with a shout of "Bring the rain!", pounding Scorponok into the sand. As the dust settled, the scorpion got up and dived into the sand, but not before leaving part of its damaged tail behind. Lennox and Epps ran to check on Fig, who had been struck by one of the scorpion's missiles. |
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| + | :::Beast Machines is monumentally important to the overall franchise. Most of what we know about sparks and the Matrix/Allspark came from there. "The Gathering"'s franchise contributions amount to the novelty of seeing Razorbeast standing up and talking. Honestly, I think new would-be contributors should make an effort to read up on things like [[Canon]] and [[continuity families]] before they make proclamations about such on main article pages. |
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| − | En-route back to the America, the team studies the tail they salvaged from the battlescene. As the analyst descibed that it seemed to be covered in a [[Self-regenerating molecular armor]], Lennox pointed out where a sabot round had burned right through. Turning to Epps' expertise, he asked if it was correct that sabot rounds had a 6000 degree magnesium burn, to which Epps said was true. As Lennox ordered Epps to tell command to load sabot rounds on all their gunships, the tail suddenly came to life and narrowly missed impaling them. Epps angrily berated the analyst for telling them it was dead, Lennox ordered them to strap the tail down, while concluding that the technology behind it was 'wicked'. Touching down at Nellis Air Force Base, no sooner had Lennox's men walked off the plane when [[Sector Seven|mysterious government agents]] pull up in black SUVs and order the Rangers to come with them. |
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| + | --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] 18:44, 18 July 2007 (UTC) |
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| + | The allspark thing was a canon conflict in it's own right. People tend to forget a certain race of 4 headed floating bots with tentacles are the progenitors of the transformers race. If you looked to the original series and compared to Beast Machines then you know that the spark concept was only a recent addition to give transformers a "soul." Robert N. Skir created that conflict by explaining that transformers have their own version of life, death, and reincarnation. However if you've watched every transformers so far they don't reborn any means smarter or experienced than they are. Look at Cheetor, does the man look any way experienced to you? I don't have a problem with the spark concept, it help explains a lot...however with the Quintessons and Allspark it's a complete conflict of story and logic behind transformer origins and physiology. I rather stick to the original story that the Quintessons were overthrown by their own creations versus the Allspark. With the Allspark, it suggests no matter how many transformers you can muster, there will always be a population limit to their growth. To even create more transformers would mean the older generation must be wiped cause no transformer dies of old age, only when destroyed. I like the idea that a transformer can be built from tools and machines versus needing a powerful device glowing over a technological objects to be born, but that's just me -ShadowHawk |
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| − | After arriving at [[Hoover Dam]], he and his unit meet with Secretary of Defense [[John Keller]], and are taken to see [[Megatron (Movie)|the Iceman]]. When the Iceman begins to thaw, he and his unit head for the armory. When [[Samuel James Witwicky|Sam Witwicky]] askes [[Reggie Simmons|Agent Simmons]] to free [[Bumblebee (Movie)|a good robot]], Simmons refuses to listen, until Lennox gets him to listen—by putting a gun to his chest, telling Simmons he and his men don't take orders from people who don't exist. Lennox and his men subsequently escort Sam and the car to [[Mission City]], meeting [[Autobot|other good robot]]s enroute. |
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| + | :None of these discrepancies are unique to Beast Machines. Are you familiar with the [[Generation 1 (comic)|G1 comic]] continuity? --[[User:Sntint|Sntint]] 07:46, 21 July 2007 (UTC) |
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| − | Lennox totally kills Blackout dead by the time honored method of: |
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| + | you're right these issues aren't just unique to beast machines but i was making a point to the other dude that argued the allspark was a great explanation to the more spiritual side of the transformers universe through beast machines...like i said before it's origins are very argumentative cause whoever has the rights to publish transformers stuff can say anything they want. If you're going comic on me, then it totally changes or dismiss the quintessons significance depending on which series or issue. Same goes with Primus as the "god" of transformers. I'm just trying to prove my point of the canonical errors within Beast Machines and it's rough relation with G1. Oh you know me by now, very hardcore when it comes to the supposed "true" history of transformers. If they say the Allspark was something the Quintessons left behind in their creation of the transformers then that would explain so much and i would totally shut my mouth up.- shadowhawk |
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| − | * Getting on a motorcycle |
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| − | * Jumping off the motorcycle as it slams into the enemy |
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| − | * Sliding under his opponent. |
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| − | * Shooting them in the crotch with sabot rounds until they are dead. |
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| − | * Going "woo-hoo", "yee-ha", or another exclamation of success. |
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| + | :Your arguments do not make any sense. Your primary objection to Beast Machines now seems to be that it has some conflicts with the G1 cartoon, as if the G1 cartoon is the only true continuity, or as if the Beast shows even ''claimed'' that they were in the same continuity as the G1 cartoon, which they most definitely did not. The Beast Wars writers repeatedly stated that their series was set in ''neither'' the G1 cartoon nor the G1 comic continuity. BW and BM are set in a ''new continuity'' which is very similar to the G1 cartoon but with some notable differences, some drawn from the comics, and some entirely from the writers' imaginations. This is why we always list the Beast era fiction as its own tree instead of placing it under G1, even though the Beast fiction is part of the G1 continuity family. Additionally, if all it would take to satisfy you is for a canonical source to claim "oh, yeah, the Quints left the Allspark there or something" then there is obviously no actual conflict. You can just assume that yourself. It is not canonically true without being stated by the fiction, but that is the case for a lot of stuff we all take for granted, such as (to pick an old example) that G1 cartoon Bumblebee does not frequently murder humans when he is off-camera. If two pieces of fiction are in conflict, but there is a simple and obvious solution, then take it. Your arguments make it sound as if you need to read the [[continuity]] and [[canon]] articles so you can drop this "hardcore" outlook on the "true" history. That outlook is completely indefensible. Transformers fiction is a horrendous mishmish of conflicting alternate universes which frequently bleed out retcons into each other, and not everything is descended from the one continuity that you happen to like most. --[[User:Steve-o|Steve-o]] 13:59, 21 July 2007 (UTC)<br> |
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| − | His final action in the battle of Mission City was to shoot a sabot round in the chest of Megatron, offering an opening to Sam to ram the Allspark in his chest, thus allowing the victory. |
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| + | ::Indeed. I was going to say, basically, what Steve said. You argue that Beast Machines does not fit in with the "canon" history of the Transformers, but Transformers does not have a "canon". There are too many conflicting histories, and there have been since the beginning. All we have are "official", ie, Hasbro-Takara-approved, and "non-official". |
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| − | After the deaths of the [[Decepticon]]s, [[Ironhide (Movie)|Ironhide]] gave him a ride home, where he was reunited with his wife and met his newborn daughter. |
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| + | ::Furthermore, you seem to be taking the G1 cartoon as "canon", but that is totally arbitrary. You might argue it has more weight than the comics because it was arguably more widely-known, but that would not explain the presence of comic elements in later stories. |
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| + | ::The simple fact of the matter is, there is no story "canon", by definition, other than the real-world history of the toy franchise. For us to choose any one show or comic book or anything else over the other would a) be completely arbitrary, and b) be completely personal opinion, directly contradicting the purposes of an encyclopedia. --[[User:Sntint|Sntint]] 16:31, 21 July 2007 (UTC) |
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| + | :::I would suggest also looking into the difference between [[canon]] and [[personal canon]], as you seem to be confusing the former for the latter. - [[User:Dark T Zeratul|Dark T Zeratul]] 18:53, 21 July 2007 (UTC) |
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| + | Ai guys I already told you this whole thing is argumentative and while I admit i have my likes/dislikes in "what works for me," i remember somewhere in Hasbro that "tied" in the the whole thing even though it wasn't supposed to work out. We would argue this the whole day and our fingers would be tired. It's nice to meet other guys that know so much, but with steve i also had a little trouble following you at times to retort...still it's been a pleasure debating with you guys. Keep contributing!-shadowhawk |
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| − | ==Trivia== |
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| − | [[Image:Movie_Figueroa_cutscene.jpg|thumb|left|200px|By Grabthar's hammer, by the suns of Warvan, I shall avenge you!]] |
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| − | * A later scene where Lennox comforts the dying Figueroa was cut from the theatrical release of the film, but briefly seen in the December 2006 trailer. The scene survived in both [[Transformers: The Movie (novel)|the novelization]] and the [[Transformers: The Junior Novel|childrens' novelization]] where (despite many changes made to tone down descriptions of violence against ''robots'') he still died. Go fig! |
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| − | * Early scripts give Lennox's rank as Sergeant. |
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| − | * Josh Duhamel's left foot was injured by a piece of fake shrapnel during filming.<ref>Duhamel made fun of his minor injury during the Second Life Virtual Press Conference (the shrapnel was made of ''cork'' and it cut his ''pinky'') explaining that he wasn't allowed to do his own stunts.</ref> |
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| − | |||
| − | {{-}} |
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| − | |||
| − | ==Footnotes== |
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| − | <references/> |
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| − | |||
| − | {{stub}} |
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| − | |||
| − | [[Category: Humans|Lennox, William]] |
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| − | [[Category: Movie characters|Lennox, William]] |
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| − | [[Category: United States military|Lennox, William]] |
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Revision as of 05:26, 24 July 2007
Missing word.
"Drug Addicts" should be inserted between now considered by many and to be the critical pinnacle :-) Chaotic nipple 19:06, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
- I am going to have to ask you to leave. :-) --ItsWalky 19:24, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
- Are you sure about that? If I leave, the halucinatory spiders will come to get you. SPIDERS!!!! Chaotic nipple 03:54, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
Comic continuation
This became so long so quickly that I'm hesitant to just dump it, but... it shouldn't be here. We have individual story pages (or will) for the comics stories, and that is where their respective summaries should go. This page concerns only the cartoon. The Beast Wars franchise page provides links to other media of Beast Wars.
Also, none of the summarizing is written in the proper voice. --Sntint 12:57, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
- Additionally, I strongly contest the claims made by ShadowHawk that Beast Machines is ignored by most fans, or that the IDW series is considered the "real" followup by most fans, so I removed the part about BM also. --Steve-o 15:08, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
- Indeed. I intended to remove that but failed to. Thank you. --Sntint 15:19, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
Ok I admit you guys have valid points, but honestly though Beast Machines is ignored, especially with Beast Wars: Ascending series...nothing of the Beast Machinese Saga was mentioned or continued through that series and honestly i've examined Beast Machines and it poorly reflects Beast Wars. Rhinox turning evil!? Megatron just happen to get lost in the warp portal and managed to get through ahead of time than the Maximals and already enslaved call of Cybertron to Vechicons!? The whole thing sounds crappy, but you guys are right so when are you guys able to start an article about the Beast Wars comic then? Here's the origninal wiki page Beast Wars: The Gathering -ShadowHawk
- Untrue, the moon from Beast Wars has appeared elsewhere! ^_^
- Seriously though, BM -> Universe -> Fun Pub. Characters originating with Beast Machines are still in circulation. (Well, okay, I admit Sentinel Maximus isn't in circulation now, but he was up until the current arc, which continues directly from a story where he was running around.) -Derik 03:04, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
- Shadowhawk, we don't need to "start" an article about it... we already have pages about The Gathering, both as a series, and individual articles for each issue. --Steve-o 04:26, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
- Steve took my main point, but I also want to re-iterate that Beast Machines being "ignored" needs to be substantiated if it's going to be included here. It sounds like a statement of canonical fact, which to my knowledge is not true. If you're just stating your opinion about BM... this really isn't the place for it. --Sntint 04:31, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
- well pointed out, but whatever word you choose "ignore", "void", "revamp"..this whole matter is argumentative on that level because the fans are divided about what's canonical...in reality whoever owns the license rights tends to choose the direction of the series and have creative rights to change what has already happened, just look at Highlander 2...the hardcore fans hated it and it was redone several times because it was considered by majority that bad and I admit that I'm biased against Beast Machines cause i really think the story was poorly written however i never once thought about adding my personal feelings or opinions into this...IDW created a story line parallel to Beast Wars about time contamination and so you might say Beast Machines did happen, but because of Razor Beast's and Magmatron's interference with the time line is yet again further changed so it might be one of those time paradox's where it did happen, but it's been erased. Either way I understand your positions and honestly guys i tried looking for that "The Gathering" page but nothing surfaced on this site other than wikipedia's version online so i thought no one added it in. You guys made a fair call so i'm not going to challenge it, but I did write it based on the powers that control the direction of the Beast Wars universe currently and not in the past. I don't know about you guys, but those that control the license has a say what's canonical or not and right now the miniseries is by all technicality canonical. I apologize if i angered anyone, but seriously Beast Machines was like the Van Damne Street Fighter movie to me. There were some serious canonical flaws in there and that's why i'm "up in arms" with it and I don't mean to offend.-ShadowHawk
- Whoah, whoah, hold on, there. Nobody's offended; calm down. The thing is, while:
- 1) Beast Machines garnered a poor initial reaction, and
- 2) IDW's comics may propose an alternate set of sequel-events for BW,
- We cannot substantially say that 2) happened because of 1). I haven't READ the BW comics yet, and neither our article nor Wikipedia's seems to detail exactly what about it even contradicts BM.
- If I've missed a point, then I apologize. Your sentence structure is a little hard to read. --Sntint 14:46, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
- Beast Machines is monumentally important to the overall franchise. Most of what we know about sparks and the Matrix/Allspark came from there. "The Gathering"'s franchise contributions amount to the novelty of seeing Razorbeast standing up and talking. Honestly, I think new would-be contributors should make an effort to read up on things like Canon and continuity families before they make proclamations about such on main article pages.
--Thylacine 2000 18:44, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
The allspark thing was a canon conflict in it's own right. People tend to forget a certain race of 4 headed floating bots with tentacles are the progenitors of the transformers race. If you looked to the original series and compared to Beast Machines then you know that the spark concept was only a recent addition to give transformers a "soul." Robert N. Skir created that conflict by explaining that transformers have their own version of life, death, and reincarnation. However if you've watched every transformers so far they don't reborn any means smarter or experienced than they are. Look at Cheetor, does the man look any way experienced to you? I don't have a problem with the spark concept, it help explains a lot...however with the Quintessons and Allspark it's a complete conflict of story and logic behind transformer origins and physiology. I rather stick to the original story that the Quintessons were overthrown by their own creations versus the Allspark. With the Allspark, it suggests no matter how many transformers you can muster, there will always be a population limit to their growth. To even create more transformers would mean the older generation must be wiped cause no transformer dies of old age, only when destroyed. I like the idea that a transformer can be built from tools and machines versus needing a powerful device glowing over a technological objects to be born, but that's just me -ShadowHawk
- None of these discrepancies are unique to Beast Machines. Are you familiar with the G1 comic continuity? --Sntint 07:46, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
you're right these issues aren't just unique to beast machines but i was making a point to the other dude that argued the allspark was a great explanation to the more spiritual side of the transformers universe through beast machines...like i said before it's origins are very argumentative cause whoever has the rights to publish transformers stuff can say anything they want. If you're going comic on me, then it totally changes or dismiss the quintessons significance depending on which series or issue. Same goes with Primus as the "god" of transformers. I'm just trying to prove my point of the canonical errors within Beast Machines and it's rough relation with G1. Oh you know me by now, very hardcore when it comes to the supposed "true" history of transformers. If they say the Allspark was something the Quintessons left behind in their creation of the transformers then that would explain so much and i would totally shut my mouth up.- shadowhawk
- Your arguments do not make any sense. Your primary objection to Beast Machines now seems to be that it has some conflicts with the G1 cartoon, as if the G1 cartoon is the only true continuity, or as if the Beast shows even claimed that they were in the same continuity as the G1 cartoon, which they most definitely did not. The Beast Wars writers repeatedly stated that their series was set in neither the G1 cartoon nor the G1 comic continuity. BW and BM are set in a new continuity which is very similar to the G1 cartoon but with some notable differences, some drawn from the comics, and some entirely from the writers' imaginations. This is why we always list the Beast era fiction as its own tree instead of placing it under G1, even though the Beast fiction is part of the G1 continuity family. Additionally, if all it would take to satisfy you is for a canonical source to claim "oh, yeah, the Quints left the Allspark there or something" then there is obviously no actual conflict. You can just assume that yourself. It is not canonically true without being stated by the fiction, but that is the case for a lot of stuff we all take for granted, such as (to pick an old example) that G1 cartoon Bumblebee does not frequently murder humans when he is off-camera. If two pieces of fiction are in conflict, but there is a simple and obvious solution, then take it. Your arguments make it sound as if you need to read the continuity and canon articles so you can drop this "hardcore" outlook on the "true" history. That outlook is completely indefensible. Transformers fiction is a horrendous mishmish of conflicting alternate universes which frequently bleed out retcons into each other, and not everything is descended from the one continuity that you happen to like most. --Steve-o 13:59, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
- Indeed. I was going to say, basically, what Steve said. You argue that Beast Machines does not fit in with the "canon" history of the Transformers, but Transformers does not have a "canon". There are too many conflicting histories, and there have been since the beginning. All we have are "official", ie, Hasbro-Takara-approved, and "non-official".
- Furthermore, you seem to be taking the G1 cartoon as "canon", but that is totally arbitrary. You might argue it has more weight than the comics because it was arguably more widely-known, but that would not explain the presence of comic elements in later stories.
- The simple fact of the matter is, there is no story "canon", by definition, other than the real-world history of the toy franchise. For us to choose any one show or comic book or anything else over the other would a) be completely arbitrary, and b) be completely personal opinion, directly contradicting the purposes of an encyclopedia. --Sntint 16:31, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
- I would suggest also looking into the difference between canon and personal canon, as you seem to be confusing the former for the latter. - Dark T Zeratul 18:53, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
Ai guys I already told you this whole thing is argumentative and while I admit i have my likes/dislikes in "what works for me," i remember somewhere in Hasbro that "tied" in the the whole thing even though it wasn't supposed to work out. We would argue this the whole day and our fingers would be tired. It's nice to meet other guys that know so much, but with steve i also had a little trouble following you at times to retort...still it's been a pleasure debating with you guys. Keep contributing!-shadowhawk